Leading the Energy Transition at Scale: Lessons from Asia for 2026 and Beyond

00:00:07: Empowering Tomorrow, the podcast from VERBUND X.

00:00:14: Everything in China, uh, is built to scale.

00:00:18: We can't afford to ignore the market, in the US because

00:00:22: it is such a hub of innovation.

00:00:25: The imperative for innovation in

00:00:28: Climate tech in particular, is stronger than ever.

00:00:33: Welcome to Empowering Tomorrow, the podcast from VERBUND X.

00:00:39: Together with top experts, we explore the future of energy

00:00:42: in Europe. We talk about innovations, technologies, and bold initiatives

00:00:48: that are already shaping a sustainable energy future today.

00:00:52: How can we reach a climate neutral Europe?

00:00:54: How can we close the innovation gap?

00:00:57: These are the questions we'll tackle in this podcast.

00:01:00: My name is Franz Zöchbauer.

00:01:02: I'm the managing director of VERBUND X, the innovation and venture unit of

00:01:06: VERBUND, Austria's leading energy company.

00:01:10: Let's get started.

00:01:14: Hello and welcome to Empowering Tomorrow, the VERBUND X podcast where we explore how

00:01:20: innovation, venture capital, and policy shapes the future of energy.

00:01:24: This season, we are taking a forward looking perspective under the guiding

00:01:28: theme, what's ahead in 2026, focusing on the decisions being made today

00:01:34: that will define the next phase of the global energy transition.

00:01:38: Today's episode looks at the energy transition and through systems scale

00:01:42: and what Europe can learn from Asia as we move towards 2026 and beyond.

00:01:48: I'm Franz Zöchbauer, Managing director of VERBUND X and I'm very pleased to welcome

00:01:52: today's guest, David Simmonds.

00:01:54: Welcome David.

00:01:55: Uh, it's great to have you with us today.

00:01:58: Thank you very much, Franz.

00:01:59: Great to be here.

00:02:00: Yeah.

00:02:01: David is the Chief Strategy, Sustainability and Governance Officer

00:02:04: at CLP Holdings, one of the largest investor owned power businesses

00:02:08: in the Asian Pacific region.

00:02:10: CLP stands for China Light and Power Company and operates across highly

00:02:15: diverse markets from Hong Kong and to mainland China to Australia,

00:02:18: India, Taiwan, Southeast Asia.

00:02:21: And that giving David a truly global perspective on how strategy,

00:02:25: sustainability, and governance come together, uh, in this energy transition.

00:02:29: So David, it's really great to have you on the podcast today.

00:02:32: We met first in California at the LP day, uh, of the Westly Group last

00:02:35: October, and it's fantastic to continue our conversation today.

00:02:39: Absolutely.

00:02:40: Now, so.

00:02:41: Um, let's start, maybe David, uh, could you briefly share your

00:02:45: personal journey into the Energy, strategy and sustainability business?

00:02:49: And also what keeps you motivated, uh, doing this?

00:02:51: Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:52: I, um, uh, I, I have come to this space through probably a

00:02:58: slightly unconventional route.

00:03:00: Uh, I, uh, began my career as a, as an merger, as an acquisitions lawyer.

00:03:06: Uh, and, uh, I joined

00:03:08: after leaving private practice, uh, some infrastructure businesses,

00:03:13: first in telecoms and then in energy.

00:03:15: And when I first came to the energy space, I have to confess, I

00:03:20: thought it was, um, likely to be a relatively stable and predictable and

00:03:27: perhaps somewhat boring, um, area.

00:03:32: Uh, and I had to be persuaded to, uh, uh, to a different view.

00:03:37: I'm glad that I, I was persuaded.

00:03:40: It was, it was, uh, over 20 years ago, but, um, it, it's proven

00:03:44: to be anything but stable and boring over that period of time.

00:03:49: There has been so much change, uh, driven initially by, uh, by

00:03:55: the need to deal with, uh, climate change as a, as an existential

00:03:59: issue for a lot of power companies.

00:04:02: Um, but what became a, uh, uh, an.

00:04:06: Uh, what, what began rather as a, as an existential threat, uh, has turned

00:04:12: into a, uh, quite an amazing opportunity for, for power companies to, um,

00:04:18: combine decarbonization with technology efforts to, uh, to open up a whole

00:04:23: range of different, uh, possibilities.

00:04:27: Uh, and so, uh, I personally am, am, am interested particularly

00:04:33: in this area because,

00:04:34: it, it helps, it's helping solve one of the most pressing problems that

00:04:40: the world has in, in climate change.

00:04:42: But it's also, uh, opening up a, a whole range of quite exciting growth

00:04:46: opportunities for, uh, for, for power companies to, uh, participate in.

00:04:51: So it's a fascinating area, uh, to be involved with.

00:04:56: In, in the company itself,

00:04:58: Um, I, I look after

00:05:01: Um, strategy, sustainability and governance, as you say.

00:05:04: So the governance side of it, uh, is, is one that often gets overlooked, but

00:05:09: I think it's an important aspect, uh, of, uh, equipping businesses to be able

00:05:15: to deal well with the sort of change that we are dealing with in this area.

00:05:20: Um, and if you have, uh, your governance right, it is really an enabler

00:05:24: of long-term value creation.

00:05:28: Um, and that's, uh

00:05:30: part of the reason why we've put them all together at CLP, where, um, I

00:05:35: look after, uh, all of the aspects of the business, which are anchored

00:05:40: over the, over a long horizon.

00:05:42: So, so governance, which is dealing with long-term value creation.

00:05:45: As I said, sustainability is a, fundamentally dealing with long-term,

00:05:50: uh, it longer term issues, uh, um, of, of how we make the business

00:05:56: continue to thrive into the future.

00:06:00: And, and then of course, the, the strategy is, uh, is intimately connected

00:06:04: with, uh, how we, uh, work to build a, a sustainable business in the long run.

00:06:09: So, um, it's a, it's a fantastic, uh, um, uh, area to be involved with.

00:06:16: And the venture side of it for, for me is really, uh, an

00:06:21: interesting enabler to, uh, how we

00:06:25: build a, a, a sustainable and successful strategy because, um, it, it does help

00:06:32: inform, uh, all of what we do, uh, by giving us the, uh, the early warning

00:06:39: signals of, uh, of what is possible, uh, and what, what is, uh, the sort

00:06:45: of thing that we should be paying attention to, both from a risk, uh,

00:06:49: to, uh, to what we're currently doing.

00:06:51: But also as a, as, again, an opportunity for us to, uh, to find

00:06:56: things that can provide new areas of work.

00:06:59: Uh, thanks David, and it's really interesting portfolio

00:07:02: you are responsible for, uh, strategy, sustainability, and governance.

00:07:06: And, uh, at VERBUND we also learned that governance is really an

00:07:08: enabler also for doing, um, venture investments and doing innovation.

00:07:12: Absolutely.

00:07:13: So it's great that you have it all in one responsibility

00:07:16: and, uh, it's great that, uh, you have been surprised by the energy sector.

00:07:19: That it's not boring.

00:07:20: That's really exciting.

00:07:22: Yes.

00:07:23: Uh, and, and if you look at, uh, 2026 and what's your perspective

00:07:28: for the energy markets on?

00:07:29: Um, well, I think we are at a critical juncture actually.

00:07:35: Uh, uh, you know, sitting in Hong Kong, we are at arguably the epicenter of the, the

00:07:45: shifting tectonic plates of geopolitics.

00:07:49: Um, and, and I think that

00:07:52: more than anything has a, a significant bearing on how 2026, uh, is shaping up

00:08:00: the whole, uh, you know, world order that we, uh, took for granted for so

00:08:07: long and on which so many long-term commercial relationships were, were

00:08:11: built is in the process of realigning.

00:08:14: And, uh, as is, uh, I think the question.

00:08:20: Uh, being asked as to, to what extent, um, do the policies that we have

00:08:28: relied on in the past, including in relation to climate change, uh, trade

00:08:33: policies, and so on hold, uh, good in, uh, in this new era that we are,

00:08:41: um, witnessing unfold before our eyes.

00:08:44: Uh, so.

00:08:46: In that sense, 2026 is, uh, is likely to be pivotal, um, because

00:08:54: it, it is the, uh, the year in which the current administration in the

00:09:01: US has, uh, the midterm elections towards the end of the year.

00:09:06: Uh, I don't think there'll be any let up in the, uh, in the pace of, uh, of, of

00:09:12: things that they're trying to get through.

00:09:15: Uh, and.

00:09:17: And so there will be significant choices that, uh, countries and companies

00:09:23: will need to make, uh, in 2026 that could, impact the pace of their

00:09:29: transition and the technology roadmaps that they choose to follow, uh, in

00:09:35: order to, um, achieve their objectives.

00:09:40: And, uh, and I think that more than anything, uh, is the thing that I would

00:09:45: focus on for, for, for 2026 and its impact on, on technology.

00:09:51: Um.

00:09:53: Innovation and, uh, adoption.

00:09:55: Now then, then let's stay soon at the impact on, on innovation and

00:09:59: technology, um, because that's also heavily discussed in Europe.

00:10:02: Um, the consequences of the new world orders and our perspectives

00:10:06: on how important is Innovation, technology is also to have, uh, made

00:10:09: in Europe, uh, not only from elsewhere.

00:10:11: Um, if you look at, at your companies on how, how CLP work with startups and,

00:10:16: and scale-ups and what does it take?

00:10:18: So from your perspective, um, to move innovation from pilot projects, so

00:10:22: really to system level development, uh, because that's now needed.

00:10:25: So in order to scale, uh, these new Technologies.Do you have a

00:10:29: specific approach, um, at CLP?

00:10:32: Yeah, I, I have to say this is, uh, this is something that we've

00:10:36: Uh, tried various methods, uh, to, uh, to see what would work best.

00:10:44: Um, it, it's an interesting challenge for a, for a company like ours that has

00:10:50: an over that's about 125 year history, and it's anchored in being an electric

00:10:56: utility, which is, uh, prides itself on being, um, uh, extremely reliable.

00:11:05: Uh.

00:11:06: In terms of the service that we provide.

00:11:10: And so it, it has been a challenge for our businesses to think about how they work

00:11:16: with developing technology and innovation.

00:11:20: So the longest time it was felt we would be a relatively slow follower.

00:11:27: Um.

00:11:28: So that, uh, all of the bugs were out of the system, so to speak, uh, before,

00:11:34: uh, adopting new technologies into the fundamental aspects of our business.

00:11:41: But I think those days are gone in the sense that, uh, the potential for change,

00:11:49: uh, at scale in a way that fundamentally impacts what we do today, uh, is

00:11:57: a lot faster than it used to be.

00:11:59: And so taking that old school approach, uh, is no longer an option.

00:12:07: But the challenge for us is how do we convince our colleagues in the utility

00:12:14: part of the business to, uh, to really get involved and get engaged in and

00:12:19: adopt new tech, new technologies?

00:12:21: It's very easy to find reasons not to.

00:12:26: Um, and, and, and David, it it's part of your job to convince,

00:12:30: your colleagues then? It is part.

00:12:31: Absolutely, it is.

00:12:33: It is part of, uh, um, uh, my job to convince, it's part of my job to inspire,

00:12:40: to challenge, uh, to, to make people feel a little bit uncomfortable about, uh, the

00:12:46: positions that they hold right now and, and, uh, in order to provoke a change.

00:12:53: So.

00:12:54: How do we do it?

00:12:55: Um, we, it's a mix of things.

00:12:58: Um, I guess we, we have, uh, uh, the, in, we have an innovation

00:13:06: capability, uh, that we try and network throughout the business.

00:13:11: So there's a central function, uh, a center of excellence on,

00:13:16: on innovation, if you like.

00:13:17: Um, uh, that sits as part of the strategy team who, uh, then has

00:13:23: Uh, leads on innovation, innovation champions, we call them in each of

00:13:28: the key areas of the, of the business.

00:13:31: And that's the avenue through which we, uh, we try and, uh, win the hearts

00:13:36: and minds by making sure that the innovation champions that we choose for

00:13:40: that are from the business are the,

00:13:45: not the naysayers to begin with.

00:13:48: Uh, and, and those that are more forward looking, but also influential,

00:13:53: importantly within the business so that we have an opportunity through

00:13:57: them to, to really rehearse what are the things that are gonna work, what

00:14:02: are the things that won't, and to be, uh, zeroing in very laser focused

00:14:08: on the, uh, the areas that,

00:14:13: are most likely to, uh, to, to get traction, uh, within the businesses.

00:14:18: So that's the first aspect to it.

00:14:20: The second is really by having a top down approach through the

00:14:24: strategy review process with the, the board and senior management.

00:14:28: Um, and again, it's uh, uh, the, the role of of, of educating about

00:14:35: what's out there, what's happening.

00:14:37: Those things that are just potentially disruptive, those areas that are

00:14:41: potentially areas of new growth that we could get involved with and where

00:14:46: the operating businesses themselves are not, uh, prepared to, uh, to do it then.

00:14:53: A case to invest directly into startups that are doing, uh, activities in those

00:14:59: areas is, is an approach that we take.

00:15:02: Okay.

00:15:03: And, um, as we met at the, um, at the LP day, um, of the Westley group, you're also

00:15:07: investing in, uh, venture capital funds?

00:15:09: Um, yes, indeed.

00:15:11: Yeah.

00:15:11: Okay.

00:15:11: What's your perspective on that? And what brings these funds

00:15:14: to your innovation portfolio?

00:15:16: So we, we invest in funds in, uh, the US, in Europe,

00:15:21: Israel and also in Asia.

00:15:23: Um, we do so for a couple of reasons.

00:15:27: One, it gives us a very easy access, uh, at, at breadth to, uh, the innovation

00:15:34: ecosystems in a, in various geographies.

00:15:38: And, um, uh, a and through a team of experts who are doing this for a living.

00:15:44: Uh, and secondly, uh, we, we, get very close to them to see what

00:15:50: sort of companies they're investing in and will often seek to co-invest

00:15:55: with them, uh, in companies that are interesting to, uh, to our business.

00:16:01: Um, so it's a, uh, it's a good

00:16:05: source of a wider, um, scoping of the, uh, the, the universe of innovation.

00:16:10: But also, uh, as I say, uh, uh, if we have a, uh, a group of, of professionals

00:16:18: who have decided to invest, uh, in a company that we're interested in,

00:16:22: it's, it makes it an efficient way for us to get access to that company.

00:16:27: By leveraging off the diligence that they've already done, the analysis that

00:16:31: they've carried out, um, and the oversight that they themselves will assist, provide

00:16:36: to, um, to be part of the journey of that, um, that company through a co-investment.

00:16:42: So it's quite a powerful way of, of sort of accelerating what we would

00:16:46: otherwise be able to do on our own.

00:16:48: Okay.

00:16:48: And um, David, if you look on the different, uh, innovation instruments

00:16:52: you're using at CLP, like really working together with startups, uh, also investing

00:16:56: in funds, could you share some, some lessons learned or maybe your biggest

00:17:00: lessons learned out of these instruments?

00:17:02: So maybe surprising lessons learned?

00:17:07: Yeah, well, I guess one, one of the lessons

00:17:10: Uh, is is the stage of investment to get involved with.

00:17:14: We've had investments at the very early seed stage through to investments at a,

00:17:20: at a much later stage of, of development where the, the technology is proved

00:17:25: out and really the market risk that's, uh, that the company is dealing with.

00:17:31: And I think what we've discovered is that going in at the, at the

00:17:36: very early seed stage is not for us

00:17:40: involves a level of misses, which is very difficult to, to,

00:17:45: to manage at a corporate level.

00:17:48: So we're better off getting exposure through to that stage through funds

00:17:53: themselves, because the, the, the exercise of, of sort of managing, uh,

00:18:01: those companies that you, we, we invested in the early, early stage, uh, has

00:18:09: Um, had the potential to draw a quite a significant amount of

00:18:14: resource and become a big distraction.

00:18:16: Uh, so we, we tend to, uh, to get exposure to that area through, through funds.

00:18:21: Now, as I said, going in, uh, however, where, um, we we're, it's the,

00:18:29: the market or the commercial risk that's, that's left, the technology's

00:18:33: proven, ends up being expensive.

00:18:38: More expensive and probably where the greatest risk is actually, uh, where the,

00:18:44: um, you know, can, can the company scale up and find a market which is going to

00:18:50: Uh, make that proven technology something that's gonna, uh, be,

00:18:56: be, be worth the, the Investment?

00:18:59: And so, uh, that was I guess, the biggest surprise to me that, um, that,

00:19:04: that, that would be the, the, the most difficult part or the most, uh,

00:19:10: challenging part because typically the investment ticket sizes are a little

00:19:14: larger, uh, the level of confidence,

00:19:18: Uh, initially when we looked at those things was a little higher because we,

00:19:22: you know, we, we, we felt like, uh, things were about to take off.

00:19:29: Um, but of course the reality is often very, very different.

00:19:34: And the market, uh, side of it is, uh, is, uh, in my experience, the most

00:19:39: difficult and the most challenging.

00:19:41: And the sweet spot is, uh, is somewhere in between in our experience.

00:19:45: It's, it's always hard to, to find really the sweet spot.

00:19:48: But, uh, thanks for sharing that

00:19:50: lessons learned, um, and, uh, fascinating that you have some invested in, in, in

00:19:54: funds in Europe, Israel, and, and US.

00:19:56: So really you have a global view on what's going on in innovation.

00:20:01: And, um, if you'll now, uh, step back a little bit and compare regions,

00:20:05: especially Asia Pacific and Europe, from your experience, how do energy

00:20:09: innovation transition dynamics differ between these two regions?

00:20:12: Um, uh, do you see differences between Asia Pacific and Europe?

00:20:16: If you look on energy innovation?

00:20:18: Yeah.

00:20:18: Look, I, I've, the first point I would make there, there are huge

00:20:21: differences, but the first point I'd make is that it's very difficult to,

00:20:25: to describe Asia Pacific as a region.

00:20:28: Coherently when it comes to this topic, and many others, for that matter. Maybe

00:20:32: you choose on one part of this region to compare with Europe?

00:20:37: Yes.

00:20:38: Yeah.

00:20:38: Yeah.

00:20:40: So perhaps if we, if we just, uh, Hong Kong is our home and

00:20:45: it's, it's part of, of China.

00:20:48: Uh, and so, uh, it's probably easiest, uh, to, uh, to compare the Chinese

00:20:55: innovation landscape with, with Europe.

00:20:58: Um, that's perfectly fine.

00:21:01: Yeah.

00:21:01: And, and they are dramatically different, uh, as you, as you can imagine.

00:21:09: I think the most, what I've observed is that, uh, there is a, as you

00:21:15: would expect from China, which is a policy driven market, that

00:21:18: innovation ends up being quite

00:21:21: Uh, responsive to, uh, the policies that are set by the central government

00:21:27: and their five year planning process. And, uh, where, uh, policy

00:21:33: objectives are in that five year plan.

00:21:36: The economy, uh, orientates itself around those objectives and a huge

00:21:43: amount of activity and capital flows into areas of innovation relevant to them.

00:21:51: And so, uh, that can give initial, uh, bump, uh, to those areas, but

00:21:58: it also means that there is a, an intense amount of competition.

00:22:03: Ultimately, uh, that is both a good thing and a bad thing.

00:22:09: Uh, it, it ends up

00:22:11: driving a huge amount of, of innovation and cost out as that's the only

00:22:18: way that companies can survive.

00:22:21: But it ends up ultimately in, uh, resulting in inevitably there being an

00:22:27: oversupply as well. That just reinforces the, uh, the drive to, to cost out.

00:22:36: So.

00:22:37: From an innovation standpoint, it makes it, um, uh, quite, uh,

00:22:42: difficult to cast the net very widely.

00:22:45: Uh, I think there are areas in China where, um, innovation is very strong

00:22:51: because it aligns to those policy objectives of, of the central government.

00:22:56: And, uh, the, uh, the money has flowed there and has, has resulted in, uh,

00:23:02: in some success, which carries on, um.

00:23:06: You don't tend to see it, uh, in quite as diffuse way or diverse a way as you do in

00:23:13: other, in other markets, like in Europe.

00:23:15: Um, so that's the first thing.

00:23:17: The second thing I'd say is that, uh, as a result of those dynamics,

00:23:22: everything in China, uh, is built to scale or, or is with scale in mind.

00:23:29: And that's one of the very

00:23:31: strong attributes of, of the innovation ecosystem generally is that if

00:23:36: something is unlikely to be able to scale, it gets killed very quickly.

00:23:42: Um, and uh, and there is quite a ruthlessness about that.

00:23:47: There's not, there's not typically an appetite for niche, uh, uh, applications.

00:23:54: Uh, and, and so in terms of its ability to, to bring impact

00:23:59: Uh, at scale.

00:24:01: I, I think it's, it's, it's great.

00:24:03: Um, and it's not great for niche applications.

00:24:09: And then the final thing I'd say, uh, by way of contrast is that I think

00:24:16: some of the policy in, uh, in Europe and some of the innovation in Europe, uh, is

00:24:25: with a, what, what I would like to describe as a, as somewhat of a

00:24:29: noble objective, uh, which is with the good of humanity or the good of

00:24:35: society, uh, at its at its heart, not necessarily about, uh, making money

00:24:44: or, um, providing things that are of, uh, interest on a pure national level.

00:24:53: And, uh, you don't see that very often in the Chinese landscape.

00:25:00: It's very much what, what is going to be in the national interest and

00:25:05: what is going to, uh, to make money.

00:25:09: Um.

00:25:10: And, uh, if it, it doesn't hit either of those boxes, then

00:25:13: it gets, uh, cut very quickly.

00:25:16: So if I take climate change as an example and climate tech in China,

00:25:20: the objective for tackling climate change is a combination of, uh,

00:25:26: uh, of having, uh, some control over fuel or security over fuel.

00:25:33: Um.

00:25:34: The more you can exploit natural resources within the country's

00:25:37: borders, uh, and, uh, obtain your energy needs through that measure,

00:25:43: the, the, the more secure you are.

00:25:45: And, uh, and that's a lot of what the renewable energy and, uh,

00:25:50: and storage push, uh, is about.

00:25:55: Um, it's also in part industry policy and how you can take that abroad.

00:26:01: Um.

00:26:02: And, uh, and of course it started from, uh, how, how you clean up local air

00:26:07: quality, uh, which, uh, only a decade or so back was a real problem in a number of

00:26:13: the major cities in the Chinese mainland.

00:26:16: So quite different drivers, I would say to, uh, uh, to to Europe.

00:26:21: Uh, which, uh, I think has been, uh, tackling climate and climate tech

00:26:28: more from the angle of what, what is for the good of the

00:26:32: the planet and, and, uh, to appeal to segments of the market that are attracted

00:26:37: by doing the right thing, I guess.

00:26:40: Really great thanks for this uh, insights you shared with us.

00:26:43: So everything is built to scale in China, and if we now

00:26:48: look at your innovation corporations with startups or other players in the ecosystem.

00:26:53: So if you are working together with some Startups, scale ups in China,

00:26:58: that's maybe it's a better fit for your company because they're really more

00:27:01: focused on scaling and bringing that up some to a system level in comparison

00:27:06: to startups, um, in other regions, or

00:27:09: in Europe?

00:27:10: Yeah.

00:27:10: That, that, that's, uh, that, that is true, although this is where the

00:27:14: geopolitics comes in because not all of our markets are able to tolerate,

00:27:19: um, the, uh, the application of, of technology and products that are

00:27:27: coming from the Chinese mainland.

00:27:29: Um, so, you know, Taiwan is an obvious example of that right now. Where

00:27:35: it, it is simply not possible to use, uh, um, certain, uh, Chinese equipment,

00:27:42: uh, in the energy sector there.

00:27:45: Um, likewise in a country like, um, uh, Australia, where, uh, certain

00:27:52: things are okay, but, um, uh, but there is a limit to the extent to which

00:27:59: Chinese technology can be deployed in, uh, in critical infrastructure.

00:28:04: In Australia, which inevitably energy becomes associated with it

00:28:08: at, at some point along the way.

00:28:11: Um, and so we need to look to, uh, to the, uh, innovation ecosystems, not just in

00:28:18: the Chinese mainland, but outside as well.

00:28:22: We also look at it interestingly, uh, and we come back to the US for this because,

00:28:30: it is highly improbable these days that we could get US startups interested

00:28:37: in coming out to, uh, to the Asia Pacific, um, until quite a late stage.

00:28:43: And certainly they wouldn't be interested in coming into, into

00:28:46: China even if they were allowed, uh, as a general proposition.

00:28:51: Uh, but, but, but we don't, we can't afford to ignore the market

00:28:57: Uh, in the US, because it is such a hub of innovation and such a, an interesting, uh,

00:29:04: set of, of, uh, technology developments that are, that are unfolding there.

00:29:10: And whilst it may offer a, a completely different technology stack, uh,

00:29:16: to, uh, to China, it's, it's often interesting to, to see what's happening

00:29:21: there and then go look for something similar within the Chinese ecosystem.

00:29:27: Uh, as a way of, of then of being able to apply in, uh, in, in China.

00:29:32: Yeah.

00:29:33: Uh, that would've been my next question David, because at the

00:29:36: beginning you mentioned the changing world order, et cetera.

00:29:39: Um, and you're now just mentioned that you still look at the US 411 00:29:43.695 --> 00:29:47.535 because it's an so, such a, such an important innovation ecosystem.

00:29:47: But you then try to substitute these technologies, to technologies made in

00:29:51: China or some other parts of Asia, if you find the right ones. Absolutely.

00:29:56: I think, uh, uh, as of now, uh, US Tech is certainly, uh, used

00:30:03: and welcomed in a number of the markets that we operate in.

00:30:07: We operate in a number of different markets, uh, India, through to Australia

00:30:12: and in terms geographic reach and, you know, for, for, for both of those

00:30:19: markets in particular, um, technology

00:30:24: Uh, particularly software from the US is, uh, is certainly something that,

00:30:29: uh, is, uh, what we could look to use and deploy in those markets where

00:30:36: we wouldn't seek to do so in, uh, in Hong Kong or in, uh, Chinese mainland.

00:30:42: So it's still relevant from an application in our, in our existing

00:30:46: footprint, uh, to, to a certain extent.

00:30:51: But where it's not directly, like I said earlier, indirectly, we can,

00:30:55: uh, we can still, uh, learn lots of valuable lessons around, uh, what might

00:31:02: be possible in our markets ultimately.

00:31:06: Uh, and if it's something that we think is particularly interesting, then to, to

00:31:11: go search for it or prompt it, uh, in, uh, in the Chinese ecosystem is, uh, is

00:31:17: a interesting angle that we take. Then let's, um, move a little bit

00:31:21: more to the technology perspective:

00:31:24: If you look at the different emerging technologies you're currently seeing, um,

00:31:29: which technologies have the strongest real world demand from utilities or large energy

00:31:33: Players? Where is the most interest at the moment from your perspective?

00:31:38: Well, I hate to, uh, to jump on the, uh, the usual topic, but, uh, uh, AI

00:31:44: and robotics are, um, the, the areas that, uh, I get asked about the most.

00:31:50: Um, and the ones that, uh, I think how, um, our management gets the

00:31:57: most, uh, um, intrigued by the potential applications in our space.

00:32:04: Um, so, uh.

00:32:08: That, that is certainly a, a shift over the last couple of years, uh, from

00:32:15: what was the case previously where the interest is, was, um, was in particular

00:32:20: around, uh, the developments on, on fuels like hot green, hydrogen and uh,

00:32:27: and the potential for small modular reactors, uh, and, and the like, um.

00:32:34: So now, uh, the interest in AI and robotics is, is, uh, a, a subset of the

00:32:41: interest around climate tech generally

00:32:43: I would say that it's, it, it's seen as both, uh, an existential threat

00:32:48: but also an opportunity for us to, uh, uh, to leapfrog competitors.

00:32:54: Um, if we make smart

00:32:56: Uh, decisions in this, in this area. And it's anything from the, uh, the

00:33:02: sort of customer management tools that can help, uh, run at the lowest cost

00:33:09: structure, a, a large retail portfolio.

00:33:13: Um.

00:33:14: Replacing the sort of billing and customer management systems that, uh,

00:33:19: are today are quite people intensive, um, and, and often quite clunky, um, uh,

00:33:26: through to, um, you know, how we can,

00:33:31: take cost out of the business, uh, through the, the, the operations of, of, uh, of

00:33:37: the fleet and, and make it safer through the deployment of, uh, of robotics,

00:33:42: uh, into tasks that are, uh, difficult, complicated, and, and often

00:33:48: risky for, for people to be carrying out.

00:33:52: Um, so there's a lot of interest in, in, in that area.

00:33:55: Um, in this part of the world, there's a, there's a,

00:33:58: renaissance of fusion as well.

00:34:01: Uh, the interest in fusion as a topic, particularly in China, a and again,

00:34:07: it goes to this point around the country, priorities is articulated

00:34:13: through the planning process.

00:34:16: Developing interest in a sector.

00:34:18: Well, fusion is certainly one of those areas that's, uh, attracting a huge

00:34:22: amount of interest in that activity and investment in the innovation space,

00:34:26: uh, over the last couple of years.

00:34:28: Um, and so, uh, that's something that we have indirect exposure to, uh,

00:34:34: through the funds that we invest in.

00:34:35: It's not the sort of thing that we would put money in, uh, to startups directly

00:34:40: ourselves, but, um, uh, but, it's, um.

00:34:46: It's a, it's a key area of interest because of its disruptive potential, if

00:34:51: it, uh, if it ever, uh, comes to pass.

00:34:55: And, uh, and we're at the stage now in the energy transition in a number of our

00:34:59: markets where this, uh, uh, question of how you most efficiently integrate very

00:35:07: high volumes of renewables into a system without, um, causing uh, reliability

00:35:14: or affordability issues is, uh, um, uh, is quite pointy.

00:35:20: And so the, um, any of the grid, uh, innovations, uh, and storage

00:35:28: innovations that can help address those sorts of challenges, uh, through

00:35:33: to, um, the tools around

00:35:38: Um.

00:35:39: The creation of virtual power plants and the like.

00:35:43: Uh.

00:35:44: Quite, um, interesting in the context of a, a market size of China.

00:35:49: So these are the things that, um, uh, that are closer to the

00:35:53: top of the list at the moment.

00:35:56: Yeah.

00:35:57: Uh, David, I can offer to, to add two, uh, additional, uh, issues. Please.

00:36:02: Yeah.

00:36:03: Um, which are also so intensively discussed at VERBUND and also the European ecosystem.

00:36:08: Um, one is everything, uh, uh, in relation to resilience.

00:36:13: Yes.

00:36:13: Um, and to strengthen resilience in the energy system.

00:36:17: And the second one is all about quantum computing.

00:36:21: That's also of, uh, increasing interests of our stakeholders.

00:36:24: And we are also looking at quantum computing investments

00:36:26: at the moment at VERBUND X.

00:36:28: Yeah.

00:36:28: Interesting.

00:36:28: Uh, do you also have thoughts on that, uh, resilience?

00:36:31: Absolutely.

00:36:32: That, that is, um, uh, that is something that.

00:36:39: Uh, as we face the prospect of, of global warming, that is, um, uh, well off the

00:36:46: Paris Agreement, uh, uh, objectives, the, the extreme weather events,

00:36:53: uh, going to, uh, continue to, uh, to get worse and more, uh, prevalent.

00:37:00: Uh, we're also obviously seeing

00:37:03: very significant, um, uh, cyber, uh, security issues,

00:37:09: uh, right around the globe.

00:37:10: And so, and the, and the potential for critical infrastructure to

00:37:14: be caught up in those sorts of actions, uh, um, are obvious.

00:37:19: So resilience is, is absolutely a, a core, um, concern and an area of

00:37:27: focus for the business at large.

00:37:29: It's one of those issues though, Franz, that I, because

00:37:33: of the nature of what we do.

00:37:35: It's the, the innovation area is the, it's the easiest for, uh, our business

00:37:44: units, operating units themselves to, to get interested and excited about.

00:37:49: So we find we don't have to do so much in that space, frankly, which part of

00:37:54: the reason why I didn't mention it.

00:37:58: Um, as for quantum computing, it is, um, I, I, I understand, uh, uh,

00:38:03: it's a, it's a critical development.

00:38:06: It's not something

00:38:08: Uh, that we have focused a huge amount on in our, uh, our own investments so far.

00:38:15: When you're the next time in Austria, uh, we can, um, share some

00:38:19: interesting companies in the field of quantum computing because we have really

00:38:22: a hub on quantum computing in Austria.

00:38:24: Yeah.

00:38:25: And, uh, maybe at that point

00:38:27: Uh, David, uh, maybe you can also share your personal

00:38:30: relations to Austria and Europe?

00:38:31: I think you are once a, once a year in Austria and visiting our country.

00:38:35: Yes, indeed.

00:38:36: I am a, a regular visitor to Salzburg, actually, uh, as part

00:38:40: of the Salzburg Global seminar.

00:38:43: Uh, I attend, uh, uh, every October a, uh, a corporate governance seminar there

00:38:49: for which CLP has been a sponsor for

00:38:52: at least the last six or seven years.

00:38:55: Um, and, uh, it's one of the highlights in my, uh, my, my year, I have

00:39:01: to say, at Salzburg and Austria.

00:39:02: Beautiful places.

00:39:03: So, um.

00:39:05: I am always very happy to, to, return.

00:39:11: Okay.

00:39:12: Now then, then, then we are looking forward to welcome you

00:39:15: uh, this October again in Austria.

00:39:16: Yes.

00:39:17: And um, a lot of our listeners are from Austria, but also from the DACH region.

00:39:22: Yeah.

00:39:23: Um, if you look, um, back through our conversation today, um, what would be

00:39:28: the single most important, um, takeaway, uh, our listeners should take with them?

00:39:33: Uh, when hearing our podcast, uh, with you, oh, I

00:39:37: think what would be your advice?

00:39:39: Uh, I, I, I think the, uh, the imperative for innovation in climate tech in

00:39:46: particular, uh, is stronger than ever.

00:39:50: And, uh, and despite the, uh,

00:39:56: noise around geopolitics will continue to, uh, to attract a lot of, um,

00:40:04: funding for technologies that can scale.

00:40:09: And so I'd say, uh, they, they're, they're my two takeaway points

00:40:13: that, uh, climate, climate tech.

00:40:16: critically important.

00:40:17: And the one, the solutions that can scale will, uh, be the most important

00:40:23: and the most, uh, interesting for, um

00:40:27: energy companies like CLP.

00:40:30: Okay.

00:40:30: And, um, if we meet maybe later this year, at the end, in

00:40:35: Q4, in Salzburg or later, um, what kind of progress you like to see in

00:40:42: the energy transitions this year?

00:40:44: Uh, how would you, uh, define progress

00:40:46: that 2026 is really a pivotal year in the

00:40:49: Energy Transition? What has to happen this year from your perspective as final

00:40:54: questions on, uh, in our interview?

00:40:56: Yeah, I, I think, uh, we touched on it very briefly in our pre-discussion,

00:41:02: but the, the, this, uh, question of, uh, uh, of geopolitics and,

00:41:09: and where countries do business, I, I think is going to, uh, see some

00:41:15: interesting decisions taken this year.

00:41:18: Uh.

00:41:20: From my perspective, China is a indispensable, uh, ingredient in

00:41:29: an affordable energy transition.

00:41:32: And so, uh, countries that can find a way to balance, uh, their own

00:41:39: industry policies and uh, and needs.

00:41:43: Uh, whilst taking advantage of, uh, of, of the, uh, the, the cheap, uh,

00:41:52: and, uh, now quite decent quality, uh, products that are coming out of, uh, of

00:42:00: China will be able to, to balance the, uh, the story here around how you can

00:42:08: Um, continue to see energy emissions decline, uh, uh, carbon emissions decline,

00:42:14: but also keep it affordable and reliable.

00:42:18: And it's, I think Europe is a, is a really interesting, uh, um, position here because

00:42:25: obviously with the automotive industry there is a huge, um, uh, challenge to,

00:42:31: uh, incumbency that, um, Europe faces.

00:42:34: And part of the answer may well be, uh, that reverse of what happened 20

00:42:40: years ago where European companies set up factories in China, or perhaps

00:42:45: doing it in reverse is a, is um

00:42:49: an interesting way to, uh, to uh, to square the circle around these issues.

00:42:56: So I'll leave you with that thought, Franz.

00:42:59: Yeah, no, no, thanks.

00:43:00: That's, um, cost of the energy transition is always a main topic.

00:43:04: Yeah.

00:43:04: In the Austrian and European discussion, and I think it's,

00:43:08: quite a good hint.

00:43:10: Something that we really should focus on how we can benefit in a

00:43:13: corporation, uh, with China and, and the Asian market, not, not only to

00:43:17: compete, but really to have a competitive advantage for both of them.

00:43:20: Yeah, exactly.

00:43:21: So, um, many thanks David for sharing your strategic perspective and for giving us a

00:43:25: deep look into, uh, the energy transition, uh, in Asia and your point of view.

00:43:31: And to our listeners.

00:43:32: Thank you for joining us on Empowering Tomorrow.

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